Seafood was never part of the plan
Working in seafood was never part of the plan for Forsyth Seafood Market & Café’s mother-daughter team in Winston-Salem. With a master’s degree in mathematics, Virginia Hardesty excelled in corporate predictive modeling. Daughter, Ashley Armstrong, envisioned a fashion career in New York City and Paris.
But, as Hardesty says, “My dad was a commercial fisherman. My husband's dad was a commercial fisherman. So, we kind of had it in our blood.”
No matter, Hardesty, a Beaufort, N.C., native, was certain Armstrong would never follow her into the seafood business. “It's kind of like one of those things, I think when you look at your children, you say, ‘Well, they're definitely not gonna do this.’”
Little did Hardesty know how deeply her daughter would get involved once Armstrong realized the fashion industry was not her calling and asked her mom for a job.
Armstrong went right to work using her design and marketing skills to transform Forsyth’s website and social media pages into an irresistible array of delicious storytelling. She also earned a culinary degree, applying her studies to successfully restyle Forsyth's seafood menu into a list that honors African American fried seafood traditions while adding dashes of contemporary flair.
That optimistic ambition extends to bold plans for the future.
“We're looking to do more locations,” Armstrong said, “And I would like to franchise, I would like to become a large seafood distributor for the fresh market as well. And kind of do like my own style of restaurant, as well, that's leaning more towards more fine dining. So many things.”
______________________________
This story is party of NC Catch’s “Recognizing African American Participation in the North Carolina Seafood Industry” project. North Carolina’s Black seafood business community has partnered with researchers in this historic project conceived by NC Catch to build understanding of the vital role African Americans and people of color play in the state’s seafood industry. Narratives, video and oral histories tell the stories of Black fishers, wholesalers, chefs and others working in seafood. A N.C. Sea Grant 2024 Community Collaborative Research Grant has helped fund the project.
______________________________
For all their business success, the women remain rooted in family heritage and community building, working hard to give back to their neighborhood and the area they love. The business is named after Forsyth County, where Winston-Salem is the county seat.
Hardesty and Armstrong shared their stories during a joint interview with NC Catch’s “Recognizing African American Participation in the North Carolina Seafood Industry” project team. The following excerpts have been edited for length and clarity.
Virginia Hardesty, what inspired you to leave the corporate world and enter the seafood business?
My late husband, he passed 11 years ago, and I were trying to figure out what kind of business we were going to be in. After we came out of college, and we started in corporate jobs, we knew we wanted to own a business. We just had it in us for some reason. And so, we went to a lot of seminars and looked at a lot of products and looked at a lot of different things and just couldn't decide.
And then one night, we were in the basement of the house and said, ‘We're gonna decide tonight!’ So, then we said, ‘We know seafood; we've been bringing it back (from the N.C. coast) for our friends.” We had people say, ‘When you go home, bring this back, bring that back.’ We knew good seafood because we've been eating it all our lives. We knew that there was a market here (in Winston-Salem) for it.
I think we went down (to the coast) and bought 500 pounds of shrimp and brought them back and took them to the flea market with the heads on. Nobody would buy it, because they were not used to seeing shrimp up here with the head on. So, then we're in the basement trying to pop the heads off, trying to sell ’em, trying to call people, trying to see how we can sell all this shrimp.
We ended up buying a little fish market. Not too far from here, back in 1984. This is our 40th year. I was still in corporate America, and my husband started running the fish market. On the weekend, I had my double life, helping him sell seafood.
For about a month, we didn't tell anybody that he had quit his job. Because, I mean…what parents (expect after their) kids go to college (is that they’ll work) in corporate America.
We just had the business bug. And had the faith to think that if we got out there, we could be successful at it.
How old were you? And tell us about your husband, Charlie Hardesty.
I was about 27; my husband was about 30.
He went to Elizabeth City State University, and I went to A & T and eventually got my master’s from Wake Forest. He moved up here (Winston-Salem), and then when I graduated, I ended up staying in the area and we got married. He was with a small company, doing inventory control, warehouse manager.
He was a star athlete. He was a pitcher at Elizabeth City State and football quarterback at East Carteret High School (in Beaufort). He went on to Elizabeth City and played football there. So, he's very talented, but I think part of that was too, he was kind of a self-starter and determined. Very quiet, kind of laid back. Just working it and working at it. My daughter wasn't born until 1990.
Did the two of you grow up in the same neighborhood in Beaufort?
He was three or four blocks away. He was three or four years older than me, so he was hanging out with my older brother.
We weren't big on fishing, you know, as kids growing up there. We did more crabbing. We'd go over to west Beaufort, off the little bridge over there and crab and bring it home and put it in a pot and make crab stew with the dumplings and bacon grease and all that stuff.
Your father fished for a living.
My dad would go down south for months to fish (menhaden in Louisiana). That's what a lot of the Black men in particular did — they left their families and went down there. He was gone for months and months at a time because it was all over everywhere. It was a tough life, hard work. They (fishermen) didn't own the boats, but they worked on the boats.
Ashley Armstrong, tell us about growing up with Forsyth Seafood.
My parents would pick me up from school. And they'd bring me back here. I would do my homework here every day. Saturdays, I'd rollerblade down the sidewalk. I would record cartoons on TV at home and bring them here and just watch them on the television. I would be sitting in the kitchen watching cartoons, just in the way when we got a line out the door.
My dad would go to auctions to find pre-owned or pre-used kitchen equipment. And he would find lots of random stuff like perfume or purses, and he would give them to me, and I would sell them in the restaurant. I wanted a business.
But you weren’t thinking about working at Forsyth when you grew up?
I wanted to go to New York, and I wanted to be a fashion designer. Then I wanted to be a fashion stylist. I wanted to work in all the fashion houses and make clothes.
After college, I had a job at a seamless knitting factory. We would make demo-like products for these huge companies like Ralph Lauren and Tommy Hilfiger. Like swimwear, undergarments. I would be in this factory with one other person. And we would thread these huge 20-ton machines with all of this thread just to make one product, send it to China, get the specs, and they would send back 10,000. I did that after school for 10 months. I didn't like it.
How did you transition to Forsyth?
I was like, I can do the social media here. I can do the signage, I can get the word out in the community, all of that. I was here for three years, and then I decided I wanted to go to culinary school. I went to Johnson and Wales in Charlotte. I did that for two years and was able to do my internship with (four-time James Beard Award-semifinalist chef) Joe Kindred at Kindred restaurant in Davidson, N.C. I also started a small pop-up dinner party company in Winston-Salem. I did that for like two years. Kindred offered me a job. I turned it down. I'm sure they still talk about that, like, ‘I can't believe she didn't take a job from us!’ I came back home to help my mom…And I've been here ever since.
We launched the food truck in 2020. The truck is super cute. I was on the truck about twice a week, every week in COVID, during 2020 to 2021. We did really, really well.
Did Forsyth close during the COVID-19 pandemic?
Armstrong: The sit-down shut down, but we were open the whole time because we have takeout. We installed a new point of sale (days before the mandatory restaurant shutdown when the pandemic began). That allowed us to do curbside. That allowed us to (accept online orders). We didn’t have that (online) capability before. I think during that time, our sales increased by maybe 5%, something crazy. I was constantly pushing on Instagram and Facebook, like ‘Hey we're open, use this link to order, come in and order.’ And we still have pictures, people would come and just stand on our (social-distance floor) stickers in the dining room and just wait.
October 2019, we found the truck. We got it wrapped. And then January came, and we got it outfitted and everything and then COVID hit. I was like, OK, we'll go on the food truck. Go to local bars and different breweries in Winston Salem. Different neighborhoods. Churches on Sundays...
Hardesty: We used the truck in conjunction with the city to pass out masks. It was a mob — masks were hard to find.
What are the most popular products at the seafood market?
Hardesty: Croakers. Spots. Croakers are bigger. Spots, even out of season. Because spot season is so short, it's mostly frozen spots.
Is your clientele mainly African American clientele?
Hardesty: Majority. But our demographics have changed a lot. It's good food, we have to say, so people seek us out. People become aware of different things we do like Thursday mornings at seven o'clock is primarily a white prayer group, New Canaan society…So a lot of guys who maybe wouldn't venture into East Winston, they come. Then they come back for lunch.
Where do you go to pick up your seafood?
Hardesty: Croakers are the popular fish here (in Winston-Salem). Growing up, we didn't eat croakers on the coast; we ate spots and hogfish. When we started our fish market, my husband picked up mostly everything we sold at the fish market (on the coast), Down East at Styron’s and Beaufort at Dudley's. They're not there anymore. Everybody sold out to condos or something.
A lot of it (now) unfortunately comes out of Wilmington (N.C.). Beaufort was the biggest seaport for years and years and years, everything about seafood came out of Beaufort. So, it was no big deal for us to go down and get a load of fish. And you know, we’re familiar (with the Beaufort area), we’re family too. Makes a big difference.
I think my biggest concern about seafood now is that it's so expensive to buy wholesale. So, you price people out or force them to buy something else that they maybe wouldn't want.
It's harder, even on the coast, to find fish?
Yes! My baby sister still lives in Beaufort. When they come up here…they'll get speckled trout because (they can’t find it where they live). They'll take it back home. I'm thinking, what is wrong with this picture? They buy fish to take back home (to the coast)?
Do you try to educate your customers about seafood? About what to look for? Do you ever try to explain fisheries management, how sometimes seafood is expensive because there are fishing quotas and commercial fishers are allowed to harvest only so much seafood?
Armstrong: They (customers) just want to eat. Like, we were supposed to have a crab fest and then that was Hurricane Flo or something, and we had to cancel it, and they could not understand why we did not have crabs. Like, there was a hurricane, guys lost their boats, they lost their house, got pushed out to sea, there are no crabs right now. They could not understand that. I'm like, OK, we have to continue to educate everybody.
Have you experienced any kind of hurdles for being women or being people of color?
Hardesty: Sure. When we started out, my husband would take the truck, and he would go up and down the coast. And a lot of times people won't sell (you seafood) if they think you're suspect or something, they don't sell to you, if they're not familiar. And then, as an African American, you know, it's a double hurdle to get over. My husband was a very likable person. So, I think just his persistence. Beaufort was easier because people knew us there. And fish was very plentiful. And then people who worked at the fish house would be helpful, you know, that maybe knew the family or whatever, that were maybe African American. So, certain people would look out for us and say, ‘Oh, the croakers are running, the blue fish are running.’
I just think over time, because my husband was a likable person, quiet, but likable…and then they see you still coming, and you're still buying big quantities. So, if you're, you know, a good customer, and you pay, your money is good…(but) it was tough because some wouldn't sell to you, you know?
What do you see looking into the future?
Armstrong: Everything! We've been looking at different properties to do another location. We do have a satellite location that we opened in July, was it August? At a local hospital. We have a counter…in a food court location.
Hardesty: It (hospital location) was kind of like a ministry because when you're in (the hospital), you (need) something to give you a break. People say ‘Oh, I was with my husband. It was just so great to leave and go get something good to eat and come back.’ So, it's new and we're looking to grow it.
Armstrong: We do have our own seafood breader. So we're looking to do that for retail.
Are there people you would credit in mentoring you and helping you in this industry?
Hardesty: Sometimes, people who speak a positive word into your life have a big impact, just encourage you and say, ‘You're doing a good thing.’ When we expanded this 11 years ago, there was a bookstore next door, so we had to buy the bookstore. It was another African American business. It was a well-known bookstore. They had all kinds of tours — Oprah came, and Maya Angelou. Cicely Tyson. They were a big deal, but they (owners) were at retirement age, so it (property sale) kind of worked out for them. He (bookstore owner) was in here the other night. He said, ‘I'm just so proud.’ He said, ‘Your light is shining.’
Armstrong: From my generation, there is another female African-American-owned restaurant in town, and it's soul food. She actually got nominated for James Beard (Award) last year (2023). Vivian (Joiner) and Stephanie (Tyson) own Sweet Potatoes in Winston Salem. And they always encourage me. I was going to be the fashion girl, go off to New York and live my life and go to Paris. They kind of brought me back to like, ‘Okay, you already have a foundation…why don't you springboard off of that and build it (your dream)?’ So other local women and men, African American men and women, they just encourage me like, ‘I see what you're doing.’
And the other part of that, I went to culinary school. Most of that teaching is refined and it's like French preparation. And all those things have nods to African American cuisine as well. But there's kind of a shame that comes with ‘Oh, you fry fish. Oh, you fry chicken,’ and it's like, people don't know how to fry. That's the preparation that you have to learn in culinary school. Also, people (the public) want that…but there's kind of like a shame that comes with that, ‘Oh, you're not really cooking, you're frying food.’ So, I think it's really cool that people encouraged me in that and encouraged us in that because that's a thing that's needed in all cultures in all communities.
What are your favorite seafood dishes?
Hardesty: I tend to go back to what I grew up with. I like spots. Or sea mullets — Virginia mullets they call them up here. Fried…We have a good Down East gumbo. It was my husband's recipe.
Armstrong: We call it the eastern North Carolina gumbo, because it has tomatoes in it. There’s shrimp and there's crab and there's oysters and okra, crab claws. Peppers. Onions. Little bit of rice. It's a tad bit spicy but not really spicy. We make a really dark roux. It's really good. My parents, they always hosted parties at their house, there would be hundreds of people at their house. They would cook all this food. My dad would always make this big pot of gumbo when we would have these events like once or twice a year…people just love it, and they just kept coming back and buying it. So, we're actually looking to put that in retail stores, as well.
Is there anything that you'd like to add about your experience in this business in Winston Salem?
Hardesty: I think that one thing that has afforded us is we do a lot in the community. We get involved in city community development corporations, I've been involved in a couple of those that build houses or businesses or communities. So, I think we try to give back. Like S.G. Adkins Community Development Corporation is for east Winston's plan for redevelopment, bringing more business into the area and building new houses. Don't know if you noticed the street right here is called Hardesty Lane. The CDC has built about 38 houses throughout the community. So, a lot of new houses, very nice houses on that street, have been built for first-time homebuyers. And they're affordable…it's really helping people by improving their credit through some of the housing agencies. I was president of SG Adkins CDC, and then there was another group called Goler Community Development Corporation.
Armstrong: They have a local business perspective, a small-business perspective, too, (by working closely with Hardesty). You know, all these corporations, they kind of just go off what they see on paper, but then it's nice to have someone that has their boots on the ground.
Was there ever a point in your career, Virginia, where you wondered, ‘Why did I leave corporate America?’
Hardesty: Of course (laughter)! Everybody does that. But it's been really good. It's funny as people come through from my other life that I worked with…But I don't have any regrets.
Armstrong: The other day, we have a family friend, we let her daughter come and sell Girl Scout cookies here, inside the dining room. And I was telling my mom, ‘I used to be the girl in the corner with my table selling Girl Scout cookies.’
NC Catch chair Barbara Garrity-Blake and journalist Liz Biro contributed to this report. Photos courtesy of Forsyth Seafood Market & Cafe.
